Not sure what the letter of the law is on this one, but the spirit of the law would tell you that you need at least one adult who has knowledge of camping and the specific activities planned to go on the camping trip. I'm a committee member (specifically advancement chair), but I took IOLS for this reason. So that if I could round up one other adult, my sons and their friends would always be able to go on a campout.

To clarify, I wasn't suggesting greenhorns would or should be the 2 adults. I'm committee chair but have never taken IOLS. I do backpack solo in the wilderness for a week at a time. I've also done WFA. If I have to take IOLS to take a group of kids out I will, but my time is too valuable if it's not required. There are other adults in the troop I'd have no trouble with supervising a patrol.

Am I correct in thinking the SM has final say in the matter? Can he require IOLS? I can understand the point that it's his reputation on the line.

If we're talking about reputations, it is the Charter Oganization's that's on the line.

But in terms of making sure the boys' plan is solid, it's the SM's call. The SM should let the troop committee know who he's accepting as a qualified individual for a given outing. There's a spot on the tour plan for the committee chair or charter org rep's signature.

Personally, I have no problem with putting the boys in the hands of someone who knows the material and could test out of the IOLS weekends! (Even if they haven't taken a test yet.) The more important thing is establishing that the primary leader know and understand all of the YP, Weather, and aquatics hazard contingencies. That leader should also be able to convey those concepts to his/her assistant. (Again, something you can't test for.)

For a patrol outing, I would want adults who have the force of will to keep a substantial distance from the patrol. (I.e., stay out of the PL's hair.) There's no test for that. So, there are a lot of very thoroughly trained individuals who I would NOT allow to chaperon such an activity. The SM would only know who they were by watching their demeanor during troop outings and meetings.

Needless to say, since the PL should be completing the tour plan and collecting signatures, I would give him the list of adults who you feel qualify, and have him make the first selection.

IOLS is not required to take boys camping.

IOLS may be required by your individual council to register as unit leader or assistant unit leader.

The real "requirement" is that yeh should have folks who know what they're doin', eh? And who are at least decent at working with age group of kids in question.

Alternately, that the boys really know what they're doin', and that they are properly prepared to manage and assist the adults in question!

Beavah

Beavah brings up a great point....

We are in the middle of all direct contact leaders need to be fully trained for their position

so from nationals site.

Boy Scout Leaders

Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training is for all Scoutmasters and their assistants. Scoutmasters and assistants must also complete Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills to be considered trained.


With that said, what prevents a committee member over 21 from taking the troop or patrol out?????

With that said IOLS is required for all SM and ASM to be on the charter for that position.


Now another caveat, Our local council no longer requires a tour plan unless the outing is high adventure or out of council......So take the patrol to the local state park for a camp out no tour plan needed, as a result no training is needed.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

Denver Area council has apparently gone to mandatory IOLS for the unit leader to have registered with the Feb. 2012 recharter. Our SM had to cancel off a troop campout due to having to go to IOLS in order to be able to recharter and it created a mess. He has 20 years whitewater, camping and backpacking experience and sometimes as a guide, IOLS was a complete waste of his time. We have heard Denver Council will require all SM's and ASM's to have IOLS in order to charter in 2013, our troop has a couple of people with IOLS and a number of active adults withourt it but with loads of camping experience. In 2013 there will only be a few ASM's registered with the troop but a lot of "Committee Members".

Fortunately Denver Council doesn't require a tour plan for non high adventure campouts in Council so that doesn't become an issue for us.

hicountry

I don't believe it is a council initiative.. I believe it is National driving the training. It is more than IOLS. The Letter I received was fully trained for their position. Which varies position to position.....

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Adults/Training/Trained%20Leader.aspx

Ours was last year and we lost some long time scouters because they refused to take the training......We had to submit training documents to support that all of our leadership was fully trained for their positions......Had a fellow who refused to do it and was removed because they would not take it with him on it.

National is NOT requiring all leaders to be trained for their positions. Your LOCAL COUNCIL is.

From the Fall 2011 Training Times on required training -

"It was announced a couple of years ago that required training was coming for all Scouting leaders.

There are currently about 80 councils that are requiring leader training, and 19 of the 80 councils are part of an official pilot program. We are now reviewing the results of the pilot councils, as well as the councils who did it on their own.

As an update, until we finish the analysis and work out the issues, there is no national training requirement except for Youth Protection.

However, local councils do have the option to make training mandatory and we support the efforts of those councils!

We have not set a new timeline to make training a requirement in all councils at present."

I must be in one of the pilot councils, because we were told that it was a national mandate.

Even if you don't need IOLS for the specific training content, there are other reasons to consider taking it.

I went to IOLS to "check the block" but I didn't think I "needed" it. Camping and the outdoors I knew from personal and professional experience. Training, educating, and developing leadership (for adults, not kids, but some things transfer) I knew from professional experience. Scouting policies I knew what I could read - and it's all available for us to read.

But I kept my mouth shut about all that and went into IOLS with open ears and eyes. As it turned out, I was glad I went, and I left grateful to the folks who had put their time and effort into making it happen.

It was an interesting opportunity to become acquainted with other Scouters and learn about some local attitudes. My classmates were an interesting bunch and came from a wide variety of backgrounds and circumstances. I can't say I'd enjoy spending a lot of time with every one of them, but it was worthwhile to spend that weekend with them listening to our various lecturers and instructors on various topics and having our little sidebar discussions.

The food was awful in my estimation; others thought it was good - de gustibus non est disputandum... I guess... but that coffee tasted like sputandum if you ask me. But ain't that just how group logistics work out? And nobody starved.

The greatest benefit was not so much the specified purpose of each training session, but rather the variety of trainers themselves and their individual personalities and ideas. Aside from the primary trainers, we had a number of guest trainers that were all Scouters in the district recognized enough by others to be considered credible lecturers and/or trainers on the various subjects we covered. By meeting, hearing, and talking with these guys, we got insight into the local organizational culture and atmosphere.

Like anything else the quality may vary in different places... but IOLS can be worthwhile even if you don't "need" it.

Now another caveat, Our local council no longer requires a tour plan unless the outing is high adventure or out of council......So take the patrol to the local state park for a camp out no tour plan needed, as a result no training is needed.

Ours is just the opposite! We were supposed to file a TP if we gathered anywhere other than our regular meeting place. I balked. (Do you know how many times Venturers go out for a cup of coffee or a campfire in someone's back yard?)

Oops double post.(This message has been edited by Qwazse)

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

We had this recent discussion during a well attended Troop Committee Challenge just a few days ago.

My local Scouting colleagues were a good bunch of folks. Though on occasion, I've met Scouters and Committee Members that thought a Troop should be run like a business; with the Committee Chair and Scoutmaster dictating the entire program. Fortunately, those Scouters didn't last long.

The question that usually comes up. "What training is required?"

My answer, "To the best of my research, Youth Protection Training is the only training that is required".

I continued to tell my friends. "Now, without doing any other training, a Scouter is probably doing a disservice to his or her boys. Without any training beyond YPT, a Scouter probably does not have a good program and probably no outdoors program. I would doubt Scouts would be advancing, learning or having any fun. Specifically, without completing other trainings such as SA and SSD, you probably are not going in the water or paddling across the water."

Well that was my answer to a few friends and a few brand new acquaintances.

As we discussed the training dilemma more. I tried to describe three levels of training. Required/Mandatory being the smallest hurdle and completed in about 15 minutes. There is the absolute minimum amount of training BSA will mandate a Scouter to complete. There is a minimum amount of training a Scouter should complete to deliver a good program; otherwise why be there at all? Then there is more supplemental training that may enhance a good program they are already running.

We discussed mandatory training and recommended training, and the level of quality of a units annual plan and their monthly program.

In our discussion, I told them Hypothetically, that I'm not going to make them attend any training they don't want to attend, but I wouldn't let my boy attend their troop if they weren't attending any training to deliver a decent program.

I can't say that the whole class was of the same agreement, but they seemed to concur; there is a relation between mandatory training and quality level, and then recommended training (Leader Specifics and Outdoors) and quality level.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!
Crew21 Adv

There are various program requirements in addition to YP should said program be planned for the camping trip. Weather Hazards, Safe Swim, Safety Afloat, Climb on Safely, CPR / AED, WFA are a few that come to mind.