Putting Patrol method in IOLS Test-out..

moosetracker

Senior Member
- Join Date: Apr 2010
- Posts: 3045
Putting Patrol method in IOLS Test-out..

#1

11-17-2010, 08:31 AM

Ok.. This is not a thread to get on and bash those councils that don't allow test out of IOLS.. This is more a question of finding solutions for arguements that a council has for not allowing the test out of IOLS..

I told the district training chairs and council training chair at the Council wide planning meeting I planned to run the test out of IOLS.. I did not get a definate "we won't you to do it".. But a definite how do you plan to do it? As I guess some troop wants to go out of council to a group that justs asks you questions and signs you off..

I told them this would be a definate testing out.. They must come with a backpack pitch a tent, demenstrate First aid, do cooking, fire building etc..

Reasons still against it.
1) They are not staying in the tent over night..
2) There is no patrol method.. They could know the basics but not patrol method.
3) They may know older methods and not the newer ones. Like changes to Leave no trace..
4) They want the people with the knowledge in their classes to teach those who don't have the knowledge..

OK.. All I got for this is
1) is if they can come in with a sign off that they camped one night with a troop, their sleeping with my IOLS participants will give them no extra expierience.. Sleeping in a tent once you walk into the tent is personal..
2) I was thinking of setting a time of working with a troop to have learned the patrol method from them.. Be enrolled in a troop for 3 months or whatever.. But the more I think on it, can I work the patrol method in?? What are your ideas..??
3) The test out should highlight any issues with them working with older training methods.
4) If they have the knowledge to teach the others in the class that just nagates issues 1, 2 & 3... So I just don't have a response, except add a few extras to your staff to work as troop guides..

So the IOLS say do one on one test out.. And I was thinking along these lines.. Until I am now forced to think of working in the patrol method.. Here are some of my thoughts.

Like normal IOLS close course enrollment 1 week early and set everyone into patrols.
1)They need to come up with a patrol name, flag, cheer and figure out how they can show scout spirit to those trainers who they work with. Their patrols spirt is judged with the other patrols..
2) On the personal checklist they have demonstrating raise,fold, display the American flag.. I guess I have never seen this done on a one-on-one, but in a group of at least 3 people.. Can I group this to a patrol method?.. (I don't see making this ceremony a judging competion)
3) Do a knot tieing relay where everyone must do the knots checked off, but there ar points for neatness, accuracy and speed for the entire group.. And then their patrol is judged to the other patrols..
4) Doing an orienteering course that works the maps, compass etc.. They have to do the course alone, but the group as a whole is again judged against others.

I was thinking of changing the backpack cooking to a patrol cook-off but the sheet states Menu planning.. backpack stove.. Clean up.. Could I have them demonstrate the backpack stove and discuss menu planning.. But work as a patrol on a dutch oven meal for a competition cook-off..?

I know that with the boys merit badges we should not add or subtract.. But, to get this test out of IOLS accepted I know I am adding to the check-off list.. Is there something that I can not add to the Adult leader training requirements?? My district would be just so greatful to get this excepted, I don't think they will grip (too much)..

I also think if I get the grudging approval I will have "visitors" to my first IOLS test-out to try to find fault.. So I will need to make this successful..

My DE is going to go to bat for me on this issue.. So I have him in my corner..

Please I would appreciate no Council bashing, just some helpful suggestions on what I can do to work around the arguements..
Tags: None

Beavah

Junior Member
- Join Date: Jun 2005
- Posts: 7665
#2

11-17-2010, 08:52 AM

1) I like your solution, eh? Just get a signoff from their troop that they have slept in a tent, or maybe slept in a tent in a cool/warm weather month.

3) So include some LNT stuff. "Educative Test-out". Get some pamphlets with the 7 principles, and at each skill station ask 'em to apply the proper principle. Seems like a natural for firebuilding (what type for what location, when not to, transport of wood, etc.), packing (how to limit garbage by planning ahead), etc. Only real issue is there isn't a T-2-1 thing on waste disposal, so maybe insert that (no burning food/garbage in fires, how to wash dishes, how to take a dump in the woods).

2 & 4) So put 'em together in groups and have 'em review/teach each other for a short stretch before each individual test-out, then cheer for each other as they go one by one for their skills check. At the end, do a debrief with each "patrol" group, where they do a roses & thorns and give suggestions to each other on strengths and areas for continued improvement.

B
Comment

Eagle92

Junior Member
- Join Date: Aug 2008
- Posts: 7243
#3

11-17-2010, 09:15 AM

I admit that while I am a proponent of Patrol Method, I 'm not an expert, where's KUDU when you need him , But here's an idea for testing out of it.

1) Make the test out event known in advance, have a sign up with a definite close out date in which anyone wanting to test out and doesn't make the deadline has to wait. I say make the cut off 4 weeks in advance at the most, BUT no later than 2 weeks in advance.

2) About 2 weeks in advance, organize "patrols" out of those registered, contact the folks in each patrol doing the test out, and tell them who their patrol members are with contact info, tell them what will be expected at a minimum, i.e Tenderfoot 8, and tell them that you suggest they meet to hold a patrol meeting and review the skills. that way A) they are workign as a patrol should work and B) they are helping each otehr out skills wise. Just remember BP experimented with 5 man patrols at Brownsea, so if you if you only get five, you can do it. Heck even with 2 I'd do it.

3) At the event, talk to them about the patrol meeting and ask them their patrol name, patrol yell, and bring the flag. (to make sure they have a flag and describe it adequately).
Comment

Basementdweller

Junior Member
- Join Date: Mar 2008
- Posts: 4421
- KEEP SCOUTING LOCAL
#4

11-17-2010, 10:02 AM

It is a test out

Why would you demonstrate anything?

I would go in with the expectation of showing what I know nothing more. Does IOLS requirements state very clearly anything about the patrol method???

Asking anyone to do the patrol stuff in a couple of hours is silly.

Get the requirements, create your sign off list and set up stations. have the participants run thru the stations collecting signatures as they go. pretty simple.
Comment

Eagle92

Junior Member
- Join Date: Aug 2008
- Posts: 7243
#5

11-17-2010, 10:19 AM

Base,

Good point about PM. But I still am big on it at IOLS b/c SM Spec doesn't cover it enough IMHO, and I think having folks work together may show it a little better.

BUT the training update did say the test out can be done one on one.

As for demonstrating skills, that is specified in the training update

Anyone who feels they can demonstrate all of the skills for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class should contact their District Training Chair and schedule a one-on-one session with a member of the training team.

http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx

Thinking about it, this could possibly be done prior to or during a RT.
Comment

moosetracker

Senior Member
- Join Date: Apr 2010
- Posts: 3045
#6

11-17-2010, 10:23 AM

It might be called "Test out" but the wording is clearly that the test is that you must demonstate.. It is not a paper test, it is a hands on demonstration test.. Like if you were taking a test for welding, they may test knowledge on paper, but they also have test for you to demonstrate you welding skills..

As a restated reminder, if you feel you have all the skills required in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills it may not be necessary to take the course. Anyone who feels they can demonstrate all of the skills for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class should contact their District Training Chair and schedule a one-on-one session with a member of the training team.

or the statement here:

Adult leaders who already know some of the skills may pass that section of the course by demonstrating their abilities to an instructor.

It is definately demonstrating you knots, map & compass skill etc.. Not just being asked if you know them and saying yes.. Or having a paper asking you questions like "How would you fold the American flag?"..

I am set on having it one day, but originally planning a one-on-one or rather that everyone finds a patch of grass and set camp, then having the trainers for differnt skill visit your station for your demo, Flag & Ax yard, you would have to leave your campsite to go to where the flagpole or ax yard were set up..

Now I am trying to find ways to incorporate in the patrol method.. Might be silly, but they do it for other training.. Baloo we broke into patrols, SM Specifics you broke into patrols.. So it is adding to the demonstration test-out part, the fact you need to demonstrate your knowledge of how the patrol method works..

People like Kudu.. may get upset with my council finding reasons why the test-out option is no good, but at least in our neck of the woods the patrol method is alive & kicking, in that our training groups have not kicked it to the curbstone..
Comment

Eagle92

Junior Member
- Join Date: Aug 2008
- Posts: 7243
#7

11-17-2010, 11:00 AM

I actually think Kudu would approve of trying to get PM incorpoated in the test out.
Comment

moosetracker

Senior Member
- Join Date: Apr 2010
- Posts: 3045
#8

11-17-2010, 11:28 AM

Eagle - we crossed post, I missed your first one..

Originally I thought I would do a set at RT.. Because I want to do one on weeknights (for people who work on weekends, or have other commitments where weekends are hard..) Then one on a saturday...

I got chewed out by our District Commissioner when I put On-line training & Youth Protection on a RT night.. Those are simple little courses.. I am not to do my training at RT I guess.. I am hurting the numbers attending the breakout sessions. He did calm down & was gracious after he found out no one thought that it would effect the breakout pattern..

So that put an end to my thinking to do the weeknight course at RT, because that will probably bring in large amounts of people for the first few sessions, (both participants & Trainers to do the testing out) and their are bound to be some kinks needing work.. So I am sure that would upset him alot, because at least the first session may be like a tornado in a china shop.

Kudu ears should be ringing! I am sure the way we do patrol methods in our training courses are propably too watered down & simplest to get his support.. But at least no one said we can't do the test out because it doesn't encorporate the EDGE program, or that we needed to build that into the test out & make sure the participants use it while testing out.. (Probably that change will be in the new edition of IOLS due out in 2011)..
Comment

Basementdweller

Junior Member
- Join Date: Mar 2008
- Posts: 4421
- KEEP SCOUTING LOCAL
#9

11-17-2010, 11:41 AM

I still say it is a simple thing to do.

Knot station, tie the required knots get the signature
Lashing station, lash something useful from provided material, get the signature
Present yourself prepared for a camping trip. explain your gear get the signature
Pitch a tent, get a signature.
Leave no trace, explain the basic principles and how you use them on an outing.
on and on

Pretty simple.

You cannot do that with the PM. just that simple.
Comment

moosetracker

Senior Member
- Join Date: Apr 2010
- Posts: 3045
#10

11-17-2010, 12:04 PM

Yeah, but unless I can find ways to prove the patrol method is included into IOLS (as in it is being demonstrated and tested also), the council may use this arguement to not let me do IOLS test-out.. It's as simple as that..

As stated, the way you are thinking was my original thoughts, and my original plan.. But, I need to offer reasons why, the test out will not lose the aspects they are finding fault with..
Comment

Basementdweller

Junior Member
- Join Date: Mar 2008
- Posts: 4421
- KEEP SCOUTING LOCAL
#11

11-17-2010, 03:54 PM

I just can't get past the demonstrate portion of what you are doing????? Is it the staff demonstrating or the participants?

This is a test out there should be zero demonstration because in my opinion either you have the skills or you need to learn them, there is no gray area here.

So what happens if they say test out of 50% of the activities, do they still need to take the entire course? Is there a retest date for the failed parts?

It is too political and convoluted in my opinion. The demo's make it a course instead of a test. Who is gonna tell a fellow that has spent an entire Saturday testing that he has failed and will need to take IOLS on another couple of Saturdays.
Comment

moosetracker

Senior Member
- Join Date: Apr 2010
- Posts: 3045
#12

11-17-2010, 04:24 PM

OH No! Basement! the demonstrating is not the Trainer demonstrating to the participants. It is the Participant demonstrating to the trainer that he knows his stuff. So it is you need to know your stuff and demonstrate you know your stuff to the trainer and he will use that as your test.. I am just trying to work into this demonstration of the participant that he will also demonstrate that he knows how to use the patrol method.

At least for me 50% pass will not work except that you need to take either the whole full course, or try again for the whole test-out course when it is re-run.. That is because although we have a course outline, it gets shifted around. A trainer is done earlier then expected move the other one in faster, a trainer runs later then expected, it throughs the course off.. A trainer does not show up when they are due to start, move the one after them in now, and the trainer can take the timeslot of the other person when they show up.. I can not guarentee that the part of a course will run at 3pm on the dot..

Same with a test-out that is run for multiple people on a single day.. You go to station A,B,C the other guy starts at B,C,A and the last goes to C,A,B.. Someone jumping in and out of the mix would throw the whole course off.. Also Although the Scout Specifics states the test out could be done for "parts" that you know, indicating that you might be able to test out of half.. The newest statement for the course put out in October, states.. demonstrate all of the skills for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class . So it has been changed to state you need to test out of it all.. Or Redo..
Comment

Eagle92

Junior Member
- Join Date: Aug 2008
- Posts: 7243
#13

11-17-2010, 04:35 PM

I got a crazy idea for a SCOUTER camporee event: The First Class Challenge. let's see how many scouters can pass IOLS skills
Comment

moosetracker

Senior Member
- Join Date: Apr 2010
- Posts: 3045
#14

11-17-2010, 05:09 PM

Sure!! then just add an adult patrol or two and test them out at the same camporee as they go throught the same stations..
Comment

TNScoutTroop

Member
- Join Date: Aug 2010
- Posts: 58
#15

11-18-2010, 05:47 AM

Moosetracker, it's not clear what your Council is like. But, the testing requirements you suggest are a HUGE step up from what's required (or demonstrated) at IOLS here. In our Council at least, there would be several problems.

1) Who could test that way?
Given that our Council cannot assemble a team of of Wood Badgers who can do things like sharpen a knife correctly or use a compass competently . . . where could they find competent skill judges? One of us has already had a son turned down for advancement by one of these instructors because he "incorrectly identified 'boxwood' as the invasive 'privet hedge'". (It was privet hedge; neither plant is native.)

2) What justifies the HUGE increase from what's required at IOLS (attendance) to test-out (full blown demonstration of every skill)?
Since mere attendance is good enough for the preferred instructional method, it's not clear what -- except envy -- would make 100% field competence the standard for 'test-out'.

3) Won't setting the bar so high, simply function as a way Council's can avoid test-out?
If our Council follows your plan, the net result would simply be no 'test-out'. Your approach -- done right -- would take as long as IOLS, and would require MORE competent instructors than any IOLS here has had in the last decade.

4) Isn't what you suggest *really* what should be accomplished at Wood Badge (at least, old style Wood Badge)?

TN Scout Troop
Comment

Putting Patrol method in IOLS Test-out..

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment